Saturday, August 18, 2007

Horny Stupid Lemmings down a Rabbit Hole, WFGSIIC, Part 4 of 87


I have a sexy post in me, bursting to get out, one chapter of "Why Female Gender Supremacy is Ignorant Crap". It's white hot, honest, just white hot.....but I'm building here. Building, building, building.

Shooting fish in a barrel to take on today's topic....let's get it out of the way, and then I'll move onto white hot sexy shortly.

Most times, when someone starts spouting ignorant female supremacy crap, there is one name that will arise sooner rather than later. Elise Sutton is the "queen" of modern female supremacy. The stuff "she" (yeah, as if I believe "she" is really a "she", puhleeze), writes is such utter tripe, I wouldn't even bother with a post, but dammit, there are 39,000 google results for "her" name in quotes. For some unfathomable reason (horniness and/or stupidity most likely), men fall down the Sutton rabbit hole in droves. Lemmings off a cliff. Horny, stupid lemmings off a cliff and then down a rabbit hole.

I am not going to bother to write much more on this post. I'm going to offer you generous quotes from two sources. Your assignment is to compare and contrast.

The first is a highly circulated, teeth grindingly offensive excerpt from a 1954 textbook. The second is, well, Sutton.

Only horny stupid lemmings lost down a rabbit hole will miss why I've posted them next to each other.


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HOW TO BE A GOOD WIFE
Home Economics High School Text Book, 1954

Have dinner ready. Plan ahead, even the night before, to have a delicious meal, on time. This is a way of letting him know that you have been thinking about him and are concerned about his needs. Most men are hungry when they come home and the prospect of a good meal are part of the warm welcome needed.

Prepare yourself. Take 15 minutes to rest so that you'll be refreshed when he arrives. Touch up your makeup, put a ribbon in your hair and be fresh-looking. He has just been with a lot of work-weary people. Be a little gay and a little more interesting. His boring day may need a lift.

Clear away the clutter. Make one last trip through the main part of the home just before your husband arrives, gather up schoolbooks, toys, paper, etc. Then run a dust cloth over the tables. Your husband will feel he has reached a haven of rest and order, and it will give you a lift, too.

Prepare the children. Take a few minutes to wash the children's hands and faces (if they are small), comb their hair, and if necessary change their clothes. They are little treasures and he would like to see them playing the part.

Minimize all noise. At the time of his arrival, eliminate all noise of the washer, dryer, dishwasher, or vacuum. Try to encourage the children to be quiet. Be happy to see him. Greet him with a warm smile and be glad he is home.

Some don'ts: Don't greet him with problems or complaints. Don't complain if he is late for dinner. Count this as minor compared with what he might have gone through that day. Make him comfortable. Have him lean back in a comfortable chair or suggest he lie down in the bedroom. Have a cool or warm drink ready for him. Arrange his pillow and offer to take off his shoes. Speak in a low, soft, soothing and pleasant voice. Allow him to relax and unwind.

Listen to him. You may have a dozen things to tell him, but the moment of his arrival is not the time. Let him talk first.

Make the evening his. Never complain if he does not take you out to dinner or to other places of entertainment. Instead, try to understand his world of strain and pressure, his need to be home and relax.

The Goal: Try to make your home a place of peace and order where your husband can renew himself in body and spirit


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How To Unleash Your Female Power
By Elise Sutton


Next, begin to use your sexuality. I don't mean to be promiscuous or to flaunt it. What I am talking about is dress sexy and act sexual. Don't dress sleazy, but sophisticated and lady-like. Don't run around in baggy clothes and sweat pants. Your dress reflects your self-image. Wear nice clothes. They don't have to be expensive clothes, but they should be nice. Wear high heel shoes whenever you can. A lot of men have foot and leg fetishes and seeing an attractive woman wearing high heel shoes can make them weak and submissive. Now, I understand about how uncomfortable they can be at times so you don't have to wear them all of the time but whenever you are going out somewhere and you want to feel extra sexy, don't forget about your shoes.

Also, get some leather clothing. A lot of men have a real leather fetish. A pair of leather pants or a leather skirt can make you feel sexy and powerful and at the same time make men feel weak and submissive. Again, look sophisticated and sexy but not sleazy.

Go to a salon and learn which hair style looks best on you. Also, learn how to properly apply the right kind and the right amount of make-up. Learn what shades look best with your hair color and complexion. If you dress sharp and look good, it will give you confidence and that confidence will radiate from you. Also, exercise and eat right. You want to look good and fit. If you need to lose weight, there are many quality weight loss clinics out there that can help. Don't use fad diets or the lose weight fast schemes. Go to a doctor and lose weight the medically safe way. Also, exercise and tone up.

You don't have to be skinny. As a matter of fact, many submissive men like a larger woman. However, you don't want to be fat and you do want to be fit. If you are over weight and out of shape, don't feel bad about yourself and don't get discouraged. You can lose the weight. It just takes a quality decision. It will help you to feel so much better about yourself and the better you feel both physically and mentally, the more confident you will be and the more sexual energy that will be radiating from you.

Another thing you need to do is to get out there and experience life. Don't spend all of your time home watching television and surfing the Web. Go back to school and take some classes. Join some clubs or organizations that you are interested in. Get around people and become the confident woman that you really are. Excel in your career and use your sexuality and your dominance at the work place to get the promotions and the better paying position. Again, I am not talking about "sleeping" around. I am talking about walking and talking like the sexual and the confident woman that you are. Don't take any crap from any man. Remember, you are superior.

Now as you make these slight adjustments to yourself and your self-image, also allow that dominant nature to flow out of you. Be bold and be strong. Expect good things to happen and they will. In your relationship with your man, begin to dominate him both in and out of the bedroom. Do my "psychoanalysis of the submissive male" on him. Begin to train him to be that perfect man that you desire. Expect excellence out of him and don't allow him to take you for granted. Begin to discipline him, as men need this. Men grow up being disciplined and nurtured by women. Deep inside they still need and desire this. So learn how to discipline a man and how to properly train him.

During sex, begin to learn about D&S and Female Domination. Some of these activities may seem strange, but they are powerful tools in getting a man to submit. Wear fetish outfits and use his fetish against him. D&S and Female Domination will really spice up your sex life and it will never be boring or routine again. If you will overcome your inhibitions and allow for sexuality and dominance to flow and to grow, you will begin to be amazed at how intense and enjoyable sex can be. Also, start to view sex as being for your pleasure and get into the habit of denying your man sexual orgasms. If you deny him and keep him aroused and frustrated most of the time, he will be so much more eager to serve you and to obey you. He will focus on you and your needs if his sexual drive is on high. You need to control it in order to control him.

By dong these things, you will be unleashing that Tigress within you and you will allow your dominant nature to come forth. This will in turn cause men to act submissive around you and will draw them to you.

(http://www.elisesutton.homestead.com/Female.html)

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Are we all on the same page now? Everybody accounted for, count all the heads, make sure no one is left in the rabbit hole.

Good.

No one will ever speak of Elise Sutton again, unless it is to point and laugh at the very big joke "she" played. (Get this, we'll take the same old shit and just *relabel it* as "Female Supremacy". What a laugh! Most of the women will catch on, but the men won't have a clue. Ha. We'll feed them sexist crap they can whack off to while pretending they are being submissive! They'll get the best of both worlds. Ha!)

I can barely supress my giggles. Thank you.

38 comments:

Bitchy Jones said...

Fucking hell!

I didn't know there was Elise Sutton advice for women.

Use sex to get power!

How fucking liberating

Elizabeth said...

BJ, I don't know how to break this to you.

This is the shit that "wives" are directed to when their husbands "introduce" them to female domination.

And the husbands fucking wonder why it fucking blows up in their faces.

This is basic Elise Sutton intro 101.

Pass the extra barf bag, it's been one of those days for both of us.

devastatingyet said...

Oh god, that is bad. There is so much wrong with it that you wouldn't even know where to start. (Fortunately there is no need. We're among friends here, right?)

I don't know what is more offensive:

(a) the idea that using femininity as a tool to get what you want out of our fucked-up patriarchal world is something to be embraces rather than vigorously opposed;
(b) the idea that every man secretly wants to be dominated by a woman;
or
(c) the idea that every woman secrectly wants to dominate men.

Never mind. I actually do know what the most offensive part is.

Richard said...

Sutton owes her place to being early in publishing a strictly F/m book. When I was running an Amazon affiliate site I made sure her book (only one back then) was blocked from showing up.

Not that I've ever read it.

I've known a couple of sane women who have kind words for her first book. But that is because it did help them accept their feelings and they ignored the sociological bilge.

Back when I was first investigating F/m - i.e., looking at more than pictures - I found her site. I skimmed through some of her advice.

A couple of men who were clearly in bad relationships with abusive women. She advised the men to accept their role. At least they could serve a woman. Reverse the genders and you know what outrage would ensue - and rightly so.

I think she makes good money off the commercial parts of her site. More than anything else I probably fault her for promoting cuckoldry, which has done some real damage to people stupid enough to try it only to discover they feel violated and get divorced.

Despite Sutton, Abernathy and their ilk from watching the subculture for several years my impression is that the situation is actually better than it was. Many sane men and women are visible are happy couples. And their words and examples have been having at least a small positive influence.

As Jesus said of the poor: the idiotic will be with us always.

Trinity said...

I actually liked the 50's stuff, in a "that'd be quaint if truly consensual" and "all of that would be impractical, some of it could be nice" way.

The Sutton, however, made me wanna throw up. Then again most guides to "femdom" for the timid woman do.

Fuck timidity: this is me.

And fuck instructions: *I'm* the dominant one.

Elizabeth said...

Hey Trinity -

I got a smile out of you liking the 1950's stuff. That wasn't an expected reaction! :)

Big point there is that this is from a 1954 textbook used to teach young girls in the school system how to be good little homemakers when they grew up.

Born in 1961, I was caught in the tail end of that systemtic culture so I can't find warm fuzzies for it. (Reframed as consensual kink, why not, that I see.)

:)

E

Elizabeth said...

Hey Richard -

Thanks for your thoughts.

It's fair to say that Sutton's influence has waned considerably...and good news that there are real couples to model.

The subject of Sutton bores me sufficiently enough that I really didn't want to touch "her" at all, but dammit, that name and links to her still seep through in "gateway" access points for the unintiated, like the Wikipedia entry for "Female Dominance".

I was really pleased, though, to be able to pull together a post where I could illustrate how mind-bogglingly sexist all of this crap is to me....so, it was worth digging up Sutton.

thanks, E

The Invisible Spinster said...

I think that for what it is, this section of Elise's work (none else of which I've ever read) isn't wholly evil.

(Nor do I think that the Home-Ec textbook quote is "bad" or necessarily "submissive" advice for the homemaker, whether man or woman).

It is unfortunate that Elise mixes what really is good general relationship advice ("use your assets", "experience life", and "use his fetish against him" among others) with outre statements about supremacy. If I were Dom-curious, I think that some of what she says about claiming one's sexuality is good starting advice.

There are very few absolutes in this world, and "who deserves what" is probably among the most fluid categories out there. There really is no need to point out to this crowd that automatic categorization is silly and wrong. However, were I inclined to make sweeping, unfounded generalizations on the topic, I might say that women *tend* to have it together a bit more because we are not constantly fighting through a haze of sexual hormones. Even if that were true, it conveys no rights or status.

My own decidedly elitist sensibilities (sexual and otherwise) are formed from a slurry of Ayn Rand and Homeric arete, and not impacted on a personal level one way or another by gender. The only things that makes one dominant or superior to another is 1) consent or 2) a greater aggregation of resources. By the latter I generally mean intellectual resources, e.g the awe we all stand in of E and Bitchy for their prowess at beating down teh stoopids.

Trinity said...

"Born in 1961, I was caught in the tail end of that systemtic culture so I can't find warm fuzzies for it. (Reframed as consensual kink, why not, that I see.)"

Yeah. I was raised differently so a lot of that stuff... well, it makes me angry to think of people ever expecting it, but I did go through a phase of "hmm, I'm dominant and a top, maybe I want June Cleaver with balls... or y'know girls are nice too, maybe without!"

and had a whole fantasy of a butchy-Provider For Family patriarch for a while, tho' it didn't last long.

I do like playing butch-ish to someone else's genderfucked femme, though... ;)

Elizabeth said...

Trinity -

"and had a whole fantasy of a butchy-Provider For Family patriarch for a while, tho' it didn't last long"

LOL. I don't know how butchy I am about it, but welcome to my world. I've been the breadwinner through both of my marriages (my late husband and the current one), while they were the anchor in the home. Even though the kids are teenagers, my husband is still home with them and the dogs (one of my kids is special needs).

Anyway, I never played that "I can bring home the bacon AND fry it up in the pan" shit...so, yeah, there's dinner waiting for me when I get home, that's the way it works. And I don't do housework or grocery shopping.

(did that sound butchy? ;) )

Also, and this would be an important point, I don't have to follow Tips for Lady Goddess FemDoms Style and Appearance to have it happen.


;)

E

Elizabeth said...

Hi IS -

You know I love you babe, you *know* I do, but, I can't see anything that "woman" writes as anything other than horseshit, damaging, confusing, horseshit.

There's no foundation, there's no truth, and it's sexist, misogynistic crap. (I really believe that. I believe it is misogynistic.) "She" attempts to mold women to fit a male fantasy, and tries to pass it off as "female supremacy".

Bah!

E

Elizabeth said...

Hey Devestating -

I lost you back there in the comment replies!

:)

Yep. You said it. You did indeed.

hugs, E

Richard said...

Oh, I've posted my own denunciation of Sutton (several times).

But I think it important that women do it. The men and women who may be most damaged by her junk sociology and crap psychology will benefit more from seeing women dismissing it as crap.

Hopefully that will only further diminish her influence along with Paige Harrison's and Barbara Abernathy's.

Then those poor folks in their audience will learn about just having a good time.

Elizabeth said...

Richard -

I just ran into Paige Harrison for the first time today while googling "female supremacy. Oh. My. God.

Being a good friend, I immediately shared it with BJ. (If I am going to be violently ill, I'm taking Beej with me.)

Oh. My. God.

Honestly, the two of us were speechless and you know *that's* a feat.

You have been tackling this kind of idiocy for a long time. I *really* appreciate it. If it hadn't been for you and Tom, I never would have found my way to people who aren't barking insane.

hugs, E

The Invisible Spinster said...

E,

I read what you posted of Elise as it is ... not in the larger context of other writings. That being said, note the essay is titled "How To Unleash Your Female Power", not "How To Be A Domme In Your Own Right".

It sounds like her goal is to show women how to use their sexuality to beat men at their own game.

I agree with you that it is way cooler to make up your own rules for your own game :)

Elizabeth said...

Hey IS -

It sounds like her goal is to show women how to use their sexuality to beat men at their own game>

I'm really glad you said this. I know that you are nibbling around the corners, trying to understand what this is all about.


What you just wrote out is not dominance. It is the opposite. It's stereotypical sexist mysognistic female manipulation, straight out of a cultural nightmare, repackaged with a "Female Superiority" label. It's a lie.

Remove dominance for a minute, take that out of the picture.

I would never, as a self respecting woman, ever use my sexuality to manipulate or control a man. Somebody is with me because he wants to be with me, and I'm with him because I want to be with him. He's with me because he knows me and respects me.

Now, after that, add dominance back in. Now it's a power exchange and we can have fun. Wheeeeeee!

Manipulation? Games? Might as well be talking about flirty cheerleader types from the 1950's using their assets to snag the captain of the football team with subterfuge.

How to Trick Him Into Asking You to the Prom

Mind you, there are women who get caught in the trap of thinking that the kind of crap people like Sutton put out (for money!), is dominance. These women wander around the internet, parading their Dominatrixeeee Assets, playing right into the hands of the Horny Stupid Lemmings who use the women to feed their own sexual fantasies, and then drop them again just as fast as they've whacked off to Suttonesque crap being spoken sternly in their ears.

The men are off again that fast and the women say, but wait, I was supposed to be in charge!

These are dangerous, sexist lies being told. Look underneath the hood. Consider the credibility of the source. There is way more shit published online, re this topic, than truth...because the money is in the shit, not the truth, and the shit serves the male fantasy, not the actual empowerment of women.

hugs, E

Anonymous said...

I used to like her site. What turned me off was the constant emphasis on cuckolding and denial. I want to be with a woman so that I can't have sex with her. Explain that one to me. I can do that on my own.

The other thing no one talks about is that she says she is a mental health professional. Now assuming a man visits her for help would she ever recommend to him that he not participate in Fm activities if they were harmful to him? It seems that she never does that. Therefore any "licenses" she has should be torn up into small pieces because she is violating her obligations as a health care professional to help her "clients."

FS is a great fantasy to me. Before you start gagging it is really the only opposite type stuff to the John Norman "Gor" novels. I haven't seen any hetero Amazon porn and believe me I looked for it.

Use sex to get power. What you don't realize is how this could appear to a sex deprived man. It is almost a perfect equation. Lots of men, especially submissive men, would gladly give up power to get sex. They also do a number of other distateful things to get sex including paying cash for it. Why? Its simpler than having a relationship with a woman, like porn.

There are some great stories on it, but fewer and fewer these days, like an internet penthouse letters.

Now in part 2 of this response I pose some questions. What do dominant women want? Interested readers of this blog want to know. Also where are the single ones? Okay I just threw that in for humor. Really, do they want a bad boy? Do they want a guy who will work a 9-5 job he isn't so crazy about to support a family because heing a househusband isn't really an option for the vast majority of americans anymore than being a stay at home wife is. Lets face it, the social skills of a lot of submissive men are not that great when it comes to women and unfortunately I put myself in that category because based the amount of time I spent looking for one I have had very little success.

So again, interested readers want to know.

f of a

devastatingyet said...

f of a,

Dominant women are people. They want what other people want - loving relationships with other people who share common interests, goals, etc.

After being people, they have a sexual kink for power exchange, and like to be on the top of that exchange. So they want partners whose sexual kinks are compatible with their own, so they can have a satisfying sex/kink life.

If you can stop thinking of women as a separate class whose needs are different and mysterious compared to "regular people" (i.e., men) it might help. Women are humans. They want what humans want. Dominant women are humans with a sexual kink for dominance.

tom allen said...

If it hadn't been for you and Tom, I never would have found my way to people who aren't barking insane.

Anything for a friend, E. No charge.

Geez, after several days w/out internet, *I'm* almost barking mad. I've got lots to say, and not enough time to say it. But I picked this post first.

I'd forgotten about Ms. Paige; she was one of those sites that I discovered years ago, along with Sutton, and several others that no longer exist. For young, horny, kinky guys, the internet was a godsend, especially back in the 80s.

I haven't been to most of those old sites in a long time. It was good for an education, a bit of introductory reading (not to mention eye candy). Learning takes experience, and most of us don't quite figure out what we want until we've been exposed to a lot of what we don't want.

And look, like a lot of guys, I thought I wanted the Sutton-ish, Harrison-ish, Ms. Ilsa-ish type of dominatrix-ing. It took a few years of reading and looking and talking before it sunk into my thick skull that what I was looking at was not *real*; that in a larger sense, it was scripted and contrived. That didn't make it a bad thing (sorry, Beej, but I'm not gonna place a value judgment on it) but it did make it something that I didn't want to settle for.

Unfortunately, it appears that thousands of other people have settled for it. And as Richard points out, for many women, it was at least an introduction, women who could say "Hey, it's okay, you can make this work." For some people, that kind of reassurance is important.

Try to keep it in perspective, E. Remember that old WC Fields line? "No man is totally useless... he can always serve as a bad example."

I'm fortunate in that I stumbled over not just web sites, but some good forums on which people discussed this stuff openly, and argued points in a good way. If you haven't stumbled across Amity Harris or Akasha yet, I have links on my blog. Akasha moved to a pay site, but Amity still has some free stuff on hers. She seems to have a bit in common with Beej, which is scary enough to think about. In the emails we exchanged some years back, she came across as an intelligent and thoughtful person.

This is the shit that "wives" are directed to when their husbands "introduce" them to female domination.

Unfortunately, E, until recently, there really wasn't much else out there that was all that different. I am incredibly grateful for the books and websites (and blogs!) by & for kinky folks that have come out in the last few years. I "met" Richard on a Usenet group that is, sadly, not very active anymore, having been overrun with spam ("Nobody goes there anymore, it's too crowded."), but the Sutton-Harrison genre of websites is slowly being replaced by more intelligent blogs - not the least of which is this one.

Elizabeth said...

f of a -

God, there is so much in your comment (thank you for that), it's probably going to take me a couple of replies to get to it all. (I'm only on my second cup of coffee, brain works slower.)

Let me start with this:

Use sex to get power. What you don't realize is how this could appear to a sex deprived man. It is almost a perfect equation. Lots of men, especially submissive men, would gladly give up power to get sex. They also do a number of other distateful things to get sex including paying cash for it. Why? Its simpler than having a relationship with a woman, like porn.


I'm not sure if you are framing that as negative, a positive or netural, so I'll just give you my reaction to it.

I *so* don't want that kind of submission.

A lot of this goes to self esteem which I have (as I joke but not really), a problem with borderline self esteem. I borderline have too much, manage to squeak *just under* the "fat head" line.

I feel powerful in myself as a person first and a woman second. I don't need to use sex to get power, positively repulses me. That seems so horribly *weak* and false. Blech.

If you've been reading my blog for awhile, you might have noticed that I never write anything that is purely, (intentionally at least), seductive or sexy for men...which is pretty uncommon for a *sex* blog,huh?

Yet, I am blessed to have male readers anyway.

;)

See where we are going here? There's a method to the eclectic madness, even if it's a very winding, twisting path.

More soon. Need coffee.

hugs, E

Anonymous said...

The Stranger: Do you have to use so many cuss words?
The Dude: What the fuck you talking about?
The Stranger: Okay, Dude. Have it your way.

ttm

Cay Reet... said...

I have to agree with bitchy on this ... using sex to get power isn't exactly a new strategy, that has always worked.

But what's the point in me having to 'put up a show' for a man who's supposed to be submissive?
To me that's pretty much non-feminist behaviour: Dressing up and doing everything men like, just to get accepted.

How exactly would that make me supreme?

Anonymous said...

I think her point was that it makes it easier to get the man in a submissive frame of mind. You can go somewhere travelling 30 mph or you can go 60 mph. You will get there quicker at 60.

Her psychoanalysis procedure is to use his weaknesses against him which brings up another squiggy thing she advocates. When the man is all subbed up and in a frenzy she advocates extracting promises from him.

f of a

Elizabeth said...

Back to f of a. (I got distracted in the Batman thread, and most likely will continue to do so :) )

I used to like her site. What turned me off was the constant emphasis on cuckolding and denial. I want to be with a woman so that I can't have sex with her. Explain that one to me. I can do that on my own.

See, I knew I liked you.

Honestly, I try hard not to judge anybody's fantasies, if for no other reason than I wouldn't want to invite a tribunal opinion on mine.

But, cuckholding, the heavy duty kind where the guy never gets anything and just has to be cuckholded constantly? Gah. Forget reality, even the fantasy of it is pretty repulsive to me.

Ah, waste of time talking about it...moving on.

What do dominant women want?

God, I can only answer for me. I think that "dominant women" (the ones who come by it naturally and not because they read a bunch of shit online and decided to mold themselves after an artificial image)...dominant women come in many different flavors.

Me, I'm attracted to strength. Not necessarily physical strength (which doesn't hurt), but strength of character, mind, personality.

I don't know that this attraction is rooted in any d/s or sexual kink. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but that's what attracts me to a guy.

In RL, I have a very, cough, strong personality. (Take this blog and multiply it out by a lot, just to scare you. At least here I can edit and hold back.) I'm attracted to a guy who complements that with his own strength so I don't have to worry about breaking fragile things in my bull-in-a-china-shop approach to life.

Imagine the answer you would get from an introverted and bookish dominant woman? It could be very different, very different. I think there are many, many flavors.

Really, do they want a bad boy? Do they want a guy who will work a 9-5 job he isn't so crazy about to support a family because heing a househusband isn't really an option for the vast majority of americans anymore than being a stay at home wife is.

Bad boys are sexy from the "conquer and punish" perspective, but only in fantasy for me. I can't be with someone I don't respect. (Playing the bad boy, different, sure why not, but not the actual bad boy asshole type. )

House husband? I don't know how most women feel about that. It was something that was necessary for me, in order for me to concentrate on my career...but we never actually used the word "househusband". Feels diminishing to me, just my thing, so I'd not use it.

Also, for us, the decision on who worked and who stayed home was a practical and personal one, based on what was best for the family. Again, something I'd expect that most women would want...now that we've decided to be together, what's best for *us*.

hth, E

Elizabeth said...

Okay, f of a one more time.

I think her point was that it makes it easier to get the man in a submissive frame of mind. You can go somewhere travelling 30 mph or you can go 60 mph. You will get there quicker at 60.

Her psychoanalysis procedure is to use his weaknesses against him which brings up another squiggy thing she advocates. When the man is all subbed up and in a frenzy she advocates extracting promises from him.


Do you have any idea how much this makes my head hurt? It's like a convoluted house of mirrors, everything is topsy turvy.

*How* in the name of god is that any different than a woman who gets on her knees to give her man a blow job so he'll give her money to go shopping?

How?

It's freaking insane!

How is that *dominance*??????

I think I need to break from commenting and have an early lunch or something. (Thread over at BJ's place has me thinking about food.)

hugs, E

Elizabeth said...

P.S.

Partners in a loving relationship will do things to turn the other on because they care about each other.

If the guy says: "God, I am really turned on by the idea of you in a a leather corset, what do you think?"

The woman *might* say: "Geeze, I don't think so. It feels so objectifying to me, I just can't do it. But I like black lace, that makes me feel good, we could give that a try.

And then the guy might say: "Cool, that's great, thank you."

Imagine. Honest conversation. No manipulation.

Gah. Where is the FemDom Manual On Honesty and Communication?

Elizabeth said...

Finally, Tom.

Hi, Tom!

No internetswebz? I'd go barking insane in an hour. Lucky you have held onto whatever you have.

I'd forgotten about Ms. Paige; she was one of those sites that I discovered years ago, along with Sutton, and several others that no longer exist. For young, horny, kinky guys, the internet was a godsend, especially back in the 80s.

Okay, BJ and I had never heard of her. And I go onto the site and see....

See.....

Oh. My. God.

Oh my god!

Oh. My. God.

We had no idea. We wish we never knew.


And look, like a lot of guys, I thought I wanted the Sutton-ish, Harrison-ish, Ms. Ilsa-ish type of dominatrix-ing. It took a few years of reading and looking and talking before it sunk into my thick skull that what I was looking at was not *real*; that in a larger sense, it was scripted and contrived. That didn't make it a bad thing (sorry, Beej, but I'm not gonna place a value judgment on it) but it did make it something that I didn't want to settle for.


I get that. I get that because it confuddled me at one time, too.

I thought that that sort of thing was what being a dominant woman was *supposed* to be. Stupid to buy a party line when RL has taught me never to buy the party line but, what can I say, the sexuality kink thing is confusing without other people to talk to about it.

For me (and this is what BJ talks about), I'd read stuff along those lines and think, well, that's sad, because I can't relate to this kind of thinking at all, therefore there is nobody for me to relate to about what being a dominant woman is, therefore, I'm on my own.

When Beej says, this is exactly what chases all the dominant women away and creates the well lamented shortage, she's right.

Thank god you're here! :)

hugs, E

Elizabeth said...

Nearly caught up on comments! :)

Cay - Yep. What you said, says it.

ttm - Gah, I'm sorry. I don't get it. I'm sure you are being smart and clever and it is going straight over my head.

:( sorry!

The Righteous Beej said...

When Beej says, this is exactly what chases all the dominant women away and creates the well lamented shortage, she's right.

Yep that's me. Ta very much.

Now, just to close the loop I would like to add the observation - who makes fat profits from this shortage.

Oh, Sutton et al.

I'd almost admire them, if I could just stop fuming.

Dw3t-Hthr said...

If a decidedly not dominant woman could interject a comment on "what do dominant women want?"

Wow, I think that hits me worse than "What do women want?" about which I made a briefly infamous comment about women not being arcade games with cheat codes or vending machines.

Specifying a specific type of woman doesn't make the question less impersonal or objectifying; when that specific type is "People who may be characterised by wanting what they want", it steps into the realm of, well, like Trinity said, Fuck Instructions.

People are people. Women are people. Dominant women are people. They want what people want, in all that conflicting, contradictory reality, because people like different things, enjoy different things, get off on different things. One can learn what they like by asking the specific person, by being far more socially ept than I am and observing that person carefully, by correlating responses; one can't ask, "What do people-of-your-adjective want?" to one person and expect to get something consistently useful for anyone else.

There is no magic button.

Up down up down left right left right B A Start.

Elizabeth said...

Dw3t-Hthr -

Wow, I think that hits me worse than "What do women want?" about which I made a briefly infamous comment about women not being arcade games with cheat codes or vending machines.

Er, yeah, there is that.

The thing is, at least there are some questions being asked. Honestly, it's usually just *assumption*, if you are dominant then you *must* want what my fantasy life and these internet sites tell me you want.

It's nice to hear a question. Even if I can't answer it for anyone other than myself. (Who isn't even looking......)

Thanks for stopping by, by the way. I love "seeing" you. :)

E

tom allen said...

Now, just to close the loop I would like to add the observation - who makes fat profits from this shortage.

Oh, Sutton et al.


Right, but who's shelling out the Euros for them to be making the fat profits?

Clueless subby types who crave some kind of domination, but have no friggin' clue as to how to go about finding real D/s.

That, coupled with the societal stereotypes (caused, in part, but Sutton, but also fostered by the CSTs) which scare the bejebus out of most women, creates a market for more books from leather-clad, cruel mistresses, snarlingly brandishing their strap-ons while tapping leather crops against their high-heeled thigh boots ...

Umm... excuse me, I, uh, have to go now...

Elizabeth said...

Hey Tom -

Beej and E can't come to the phone right now. We're in an hour long email conversation about how using men as sexual objects is our favoritest thing in life.

If you'd like to be used as a sexual object, press 1.

If you'd like to focus on women as sexual objects instead, press that little hangy up thing on the receiver.

:)

(Also, get off the phone and back to the field before Beej catches you!)

love you, E

Eileen said...

So I mentioned this post to a friend of mine who's very, very interesting in the 50s housewife aesthetic, and she informed me that the textbook entry is apparently a fake.

Not that that remotely changes your argument, I just found it interesting.

Elizabeth said...

Hey Eileen -

You know what, that doesn't surprise me, really, when I think about it. I have seen this so much, everywhere, for so long, that pretty much goes along with being an internet "fake" doesn't it.

Almost makes a better point when put next to Sutton....really, seriously, this is a fake too, right?

thanks! E

Dw3t-Hthr said...

I suspect my jadedness is of a different flavour than yours because of not spending a lot of time in dominant women's circles -- but rather being used to seeing a lot of guys asking women (often unavailable ones or ones they're not interested in pursuing) "What do women want?" as if there's a category answer.

Anonymous said...

Have you ever looked at cair4.com? It's a nice contrast to Ms. Sutton.

ttm

Anonymous said...

Regarding the concept of cuckolding. That one used to leave me scratching my head (I'm male). But, as I've explored submission with my wife, I've found over time that the idea grew on me to the point where it's the ultimate fantasy now. From my perspective it stems from confidence that my wife and I really want to be with each other for reasons far more intimate than just sex.

Trust me, I'm not the sniveling groveling little worm type. My wife and I agreed at the outset of our D/S exploration that I would be submissive with dignity. She doesn't want me to be a doormat and I don't want to be that either.

The cuckolding aspect grew out of my desire to see my wife experience even greater sexual pleasure than she does with me or her vibrators. There is nothing hotter than seeing the person you love in full throttle orgasmic bliss for incredibly long periods of time. (The female orgasm is amazing to behold for the male and addictive for the female once it's discovered) It also grew out of her curiosity to see what it would be like to be with another man after a few years of being a "married woman". We had experimented with this before we were married (she had sex with her ex for a few year on and off).

I think the interest has also grown due to the fact that the institution of marriage means little to us. For us, the love and mutual respect we have for each other is far more valuable and marriage is simply a silly and overrated convention foisted on us by society. That's our perspective and has no bearing on what other people think or feel. It simply means that it works for us.

With that out of the way, I have to state that I don't agree that cuckolding is a bad thing if both people in the relationship have feelings that are far deeper than a traditional romantic relationship. Having a good deal of confidence on both sides helps. As does a healthy curiosity to push and rip the envelope to shreds and explore as many taboos as possible (while remaining within the bounds of sane and legal behavior).

In short, it works for us as a fantasy and could very well turn into a reality. It is no one else's place to judge this but our own.